Curse

Solar_Takfar · Aug 25, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Well, considering we're just a week away from release of GW:EN and the HoM definitely seems like it will be character-based, contrary to what most people expected (and prefer), I will be posting suggestions of two different systems that could replace the one ancestor/one descendant scheme that Arenanet Apparently wants to implement.

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But first let me explain why I find the current system less than ideal.

As is now stands, your Hall of Monuments will only display the titles and achievements from a single character. Which is obviously detrimental to players who have several characters (many people, like me, have one character of each class, and their game progress and titles are distributed around all of them), because it becomes practically impossible to have a nicely-filled hall, unless we decide to concentrate on a single char from now on (which isn't really what we'd like to do, since we've been playing with multiple chars this long).

As for the inheritance system, a one-char-to-one-char system has the problem of being very inflexible (contrary to has been usual in all of the GW history, where we can adjust stats at will, choose which skills to use anytime, create and destroy bonus items freely, and since recent updates, customize weapons and armor to best fit the player's interests).

The first obvious problem is that of the amount of characters: having 10 characters in GW doesn't mean you'll want to play with 10 characters in GW2. Some people might just decide they are going to focus in just a couple characters instead (especially considering Anet's decision to greatly raise or even extinguish the level cap for GW2). On the other hand, people who only had a couple chars might instead decide to have MORE characters to try different combination of class/race/gender (especially considering Anet's decision to extinguish quick-made high level PvP characters). What this means is that either you'll have characters with halls with no descendants to pass down to, or descendants with no ancestors to inherit from (even if you'd prefer to split the heritage of a highly-condecorated ancestor among many descendants)

Then, there's also the conceptual problem of an asura, or charr, or whatever being a "descendant" by direct lineage from a human.

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How would a unified hall work?
A unified hall could show all the accomplishments you (the player) has achieved through your hundreds or thousands of hours playing GW; it would be more practical from pretty much every way you could look at it. All unlocked armor, weapons, pets, titles, well, everything displayed would be labeled, identifying which character entered them into the hall. Redundant titles would display all of the characters which entered them. Armor would be displayed showing the proper class/gender combo for the character who entered it (and maybe even showing that character's bodily and facial features). Items entered in the hall would be customized to the character (if not already customized), and a mini-pet keeper would be able to duplicate pets to other chars in the account (many of these solutions have already been discussed in the forums, btw, so there seems to be a consensus among the players that these are the best ways to deal with the HoM)

If not from a single GW char, how will GW2 chars inherit, then?
Naturally, everything being suggested here is based on pure speculation, since we still don't know exactly what kind of special rewards GW veterans will get in GW2. Maybe a title from GW1 will unlock a certain title track in GW2... or maybe it will unlock a certain piece of armor ornament (jewelry, or a scarf, or some other form of "bling") instead... or a unique emote animation. Some people have suggested armor and weapons will work in GW2 similar to what hero armor works in GW, meaning that they will have dmg and AL relative to the player level, and the player will just work on unlocking different "skins". If that is so, a given set of armor, or a certain weapon from GW would directly unlock an armor/weapon skin in GW2. So, let's look at two possible ways to tackle the inheritance system, given an unified HoM structure in GW:EN.

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Inheritance System 1: Heritage points
The first system, my favorite, would assign "heritage points" to each weapon, armor, companion, title or pet unlocked in GW. The player would then be able to redeem these points ingame for special rewards in GW2. The best way to explain it seems to be by exemplifying. So, here's Player Joe and his three characters and respective unlocks from GW1:

-Joe Joe (Warrior)
Protector of Tyria (30 heritage points)
Tyrian Trailblazer (30 heritage points)
Gamer: Skillz (20 heritage points)
Drunkard (10 heritage points)
Full 15k knight's armor (15 heritage points: 1 per piece, 10 bonus for full set)
Rare sword (5 heritage points)
Fungal Wallow minipet (5 heritage points)

-Mary Joe (Paragon)
Protector of Elona (30 hp)
Protector of Tyria (30 hp)
Tyrian Pathfinder (20 hp)
Elonian Grandmaster Cartographer (50 hp)
Legendary Survivor (70 hp)
Legendary Skillhunter (70 hp)
Connoisseur of Confectionaries (50 hp)
Kind of a Big Deal (50 hp)
Full 15k Vabbian armor (15 hp: 1 per piece, 10 bonus for full set)
Rare spear (5 hp)
Burning Titan Minipet (10 hp)

Jack Joe (ranger)
Legendary defender of ascalon (70hp)
Protector of Tyria (30hp)
Protector of Cantha (30hp)
Canthan Pathfinder (20 hp)
Full 15k Kurzick Armor (15hp)

Player Joe also has Gladiator level 2 title, which yields him an extra 20hp, which adds up to a total of 700 heritage points in his account.

Player Joe starts play in GW2. He creates character Johnny Joe an Asuran warrior, and starts playing. Somewhere along the way (could be right on the start of the game, or more towards the end), he discovers the Eye of the North, filled with treasures and tomes of ancient knowledge. As he stumbles upon an old statue, he recognizes the face of the human hero who worked alongside his great-grandfather to stop the Great Destroyer from taking over tyria. Something inside the statue reacts as it seems to look back at Johnny Joe, and a secret compartment opens up.

The "heritage" window pops up. The player can now choose any of the following unique reward items to be the treasure he just found:
- Wolfsbane Scimitar (sword, 100hp)
- The destroyers' frustration (shield, 100hp)
- Spirit of the North (armor set, 500hp)
- The Vizier's bloody chalice (focus item, 100hp)
- Dance the macarena! step-by-step book (emote animation, 300hp)
- Beautiful red scarf (armor ornament, 200hp)
- Cute white rabbit (minipet, 400hp)
- Flamboyant Night Gown (city clothing, 800hp)
- The explorer's trenchcoat (armor ornament, 400hp)
- Deed to the Ravengard estate (unlocks private mansion in GW2, 1200hp)
- And many, many other items, sorted out by type and price.

Johnny Joe takes the Scarf, the Macarena book and the Wolfsbane Scimitar. His account now has 100 hp left. He could access the menu again and take the Scimitar if he wanted, or he could leave the 100hp free so the Charr elementalist he plans to create later can come around and take the Chalice.

Now, the idea is that these items can be swapped at any time the player wants; he just has to come back to the HoM, click the statue again, and choose to be refunded for an item he no longer wants and take something else in its place. In practice it means a character with a lot of heritage points can check out pretty much all of the inheritance items, tho he won't be able to carry them all at a time, and not all his characters will be able to carry a lot of heritage items, either. The items will be obviously customized and unable to be dropped or traded (exactly like bonus items in GW)

Of course the value of the achievements and the price of the unlocks would depend on a lot of brainstorming, calculating and balancing around. If you've noticed, tho, a weapon from GW yields only 5 hp, while a weapon skin in GW2 costs 100hp. While the proportion is obviously open to adjustment, it just comes to show that an inheritance is divided by many other descendants along the way, and some of it is simply lost to time. Because the system is completely flexible and dynamic, however, you'll never really be stuck with a choice of reward you regret.

The way the rewards are accessed would depend solely on the game design for GW2. The reward chest could be right there at the start of the game, in an attic at the player's home. Or it could be in the Eye of The North, reached sometime during the campaign (as illustrated above). Or it could be a post-game reward. Or it could be part of the game interface, like the skills tab; but that would be somewhat unfair to GW2 newbies, who would have a basically non-functioning tab cluttering their screen and taunting them as something they'd never have or be able to use.

This flexibility is the main advantage of the system; titles and achievements can be concentrated and dispersed from any number of ancestors to any number of descendants freely. Being able to choose what reward you will use on the fly is completely in line with anet's style of dynamic character changes in GW1 (ie. respeccing all your attributes, changing secondary professions, creating and destroying bonus items at will). Also, all levels of titles, not only the max level, would contribute to the inheritance, weighing more or less on the final value, depending on their level. Finally, players, who developed many characters and those who focused on one or two in GW, those who preferred PvE or PvP, will be equally rewarded, given proper balance of the heritage values/costs in GW2. Additionally, if a player got a new achievement in GW after the GW2 launch, the corresponding heritage points would be added to his account and immediately accessible in GW2.

The disadvantage of this system is merely conceptual: "So, my ancestor was a great cartographer and a protector of tyria, and I get a flamboyant dress as heritage!!?!? that doesn't make any sense!!!". Well, the basic idea is just that you, the player, spent a lot of time progressing in GW, and should be rewarded in any way you prefer. If you think it doesn't make sense to get the book, then get a legendary sword instead. Or you could imagine that your ancestor Joe Joe became a fashion designer after he retired from adventuring (more likely if he was a mesmer, he, he...); or alternatively, he married a princess who wore said dress and passed it on to you. Some people may regard the whole pricing/buying system as a needless complication. Well, I find it rather simple myself, and it's not something newbie GW2 players would have to deal with, anyway; if you've aquired several titles in GW, you are probably advanced enough to deal with a couple numbers.

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Inheritance System 2: Badges and deeds

If despite the advantages, you still find the point system clunky or unfair or whatever, there's an alternate system that is closer to what anet is apparently planning, only a lot more versatile.

To put it simply, each of your achievements recorded in the HoM corresponds to a badge, or a will, or an ancient tome of lore, or a letter, or something that represents said achievement. Each "badge" would correspond to a reward in GW2 (ie. a sword would yield a similar sword; a protector title would yield a scepter or a cape; an explorer title would yield a trenchcoat; a drunkard title would yield a new dance emote).

If a character decided to "inherit" that badge, he would claim the reward and the badge would be removed from the HoM. If Anet decides to have a "hard" inheritance system, done during character creation, the badge would only be returned to the HoM if that character was deleted. If they decide to make it flexible, the player would be able to de-activate a reward (in a dialog which could pop up upon clicking on the heritage chest, as explained in the previous system), and the badge would be again usable by another character. The big advantage of the "flexible" system is that if you achieved something new in GW, you wouldn't need to create a new GW2 char in order to use it.

This system is, overall, simpler than the one mentioned above. The (conceptual) advantage is that each title relates directly to an appropriate reward. On the other hand, it could make redundant GW titles (ie. 5 protector of tyria with 5 characters) useless, even tho they still demanded a lot of dedication to be achieved. It would also mean that certain rewards (ie. a new dance awarded for a treasure hunter title, which is highly character-based) would remain inaccessible for people who played several chars in GW.

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Well. If you managed to read all that, congratulations. If you want to comment on the suggestions or add your own, please do so. There might still be time to get things to work in a way best suited to the player community, if Arenanet listens to the players and takes interest in their suggestions.

FelixCarter · Aug 25, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

I love the heritage points!!! Redeeming points in GW2 while still being able to use/buy/sale them in GW1!

Buying a new emote?!?!
Having a cute white rabbit for all your hard work?!?!
Having claim to new armor?!?!
SURELY THIS IS MADNESS.

No? Then this must be Guild Wars!

I would be happy to go through and critique the entire thing, but I'll just say this instead: fracking win. Kudos, Solar.

Oh, and /Signed

Solar_Takfar · Aug 25, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

I love the heritage points!!! Redeeming points in GW2 while still being able to use/buy/sale them in GW1!

Well naturally, by adding an item (be it a weapon, offhand or minipet) to the hall in GW and thus gaining the points, it would be customized to your character, so you couldn't really get much out of selling it. But yes, they should still be freely usable in GW, after all GW2 takes place over 200 years in the future; you could just accept that the character used the item back in GW1 time until he died, and then the item became part of his inheritance to his descendants. It'd be silly to have to completely renounce the use of an item while you're still alive, just so that your great-grandchild will be able to use it later.

Oh, and heritage items would be nothing more than unique skins, by the way. Something equivalent to a max-damage weapon with an open inscription slot and no other mods in current GW. No gameplay advantage gained, just cosmetics (same goes for for new armor sets, town clothing, armor ornaments, minipets and emotes)

Knightsaber Sith · Aug 25, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with the current system. I hate the sound of the points thing, I think it would be better if each achievement had a specific reward it gave in GW2 rather than just picking one. I think the badge thing is too open-ended (can't really think of good way to describe it), players should have to commit more than that.

And I really don't see how anyone could've been expecting it not to be character based when they said it would be months ago...

wolfwing · Aug 25, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

What I had thought they do is, maybe give you a bonus based on the title ranks you have. Or each rank in each title have a different value, *those that are harder to get have more points* that would like you said allow you to get something. You have 20 ranks you get a new skin for your char or something.

I remember they said the rewards for titles and such they were aiming on being something cool and worth the reward but not over powered.

vergerefosh · Aug 26, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

/signed, sounds like a good plan

Solar_Takfar · Aug 26, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfwing

What I had thought they do is, maybe give you a bonus based on the title ranks you have. Or each rank in each title have a different value, *those that are harder to get have more points* that would like you said allow you to get something. You have 20 ranks you get a new skin for your char or something.

Yes, that's the idea. Value tables would be something like (non-cumulative points). :

Treasure Hunter: 10hp
Adept Treasure Hunter: 20hp
Advanced Treasure Hunter: 30hp
Expert Treasure Hunter: 40hp
Elite Treasure Hunter: 50hp
Master Treasure Hunter: 75hp
Grandmaster Treasure Hunter: 120hp

Survivor: 10hp
Indomitable Survivor: 30hp
Legendary Survivor: 70hp

Sunspear General (or lower): 0hp
Sunspear Castellan: 10hp
Sunspear Spearmarshal: 20hp
Legendary Spearmarshal:40hp

So, based on the reward prices I sketched in the first post, someone with one GM Treasure hunter, one Leg Survivor and one Sunspear Castellan title in its account would have a total of 200points, and would thus be able to unlock a unique "beatiful red scarf" armor ornament in GW2, or a unique sword and shield combo, or some other combination which costed up to 200hp. Exactly how much each title was worth and each reward would cost would naturally have to be debated and balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfwing

I remember they said the rewards for titles and such they were aiming on being something cool and worth the reward but not over powered.

Rewards would only be cosmetic, and nothing else... a unique clothing accessory, a weapon skin, or the unlocking of a different player estate (I'm imagining something like the HoM or Command Post, ie. your personal guild hall; some would be open to anyone playing GW2, but a couple could be unique -and expensive - unlockables for veteran GW players)

bog boy · Aug 26, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

/signed i like this idea

clarke · Aug 26, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

/signed fantastic idea, hopefully Anet will view this and incorperate something similar to this idea.

Mordakai · Aug 27, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

/signed....

but doubt anet will do it.

pamelf · Aug 28, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

That sounds like a great way to fix something we've all become so disenchanted with over the last 3 days. I don't mind what they do, so long as it becomes account based, but your idea seems like a fantastically well thought out solution.

Noshada · Aug 30, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Frankly, this is an elegant solution, one that fits right in the spirit of how the GW engine works.

I do hope to see it employed.

TigMagick · Aug 30, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

/signed
This is more of how i thought it would be as I have stated in another post/thread